- This topic has 6 replies, 1 voice, and was last updated 5 months, 2 weeks ago by Jim Clark-Dawe.
August 4, 2019 at 9:38 am #98509HerbGuest
Rule 11 ( see Rico’s definition in previous discussion) occurs when there is overlap. What happens when there is a disagreement by the two skippers if there is a close overlap established. Ie the leeward boat hails he now has overlap but the windward boat thinks otherwise
August 5, 2019 at 11:08 pm #98551Jim Clark-DaweGuest
The protest committee gets to earn the big bucks.
Always remember that only three hails are covered by the rules — Rule 19 “Room to tack” and “You tack,” and Rule 61 “Protest.” No other hails are recognized under the rules.
Rule 11 gives the leeward boat right-of-way, Rule 12 gives the boat clear ahead right-of-way, and Rule 15 gives the boats time to adjust to the change when the leeward boat acquires right-of-way. And never forget Rule 14.
Paint rubs are a great way to resolve this in the protest room. If the paint is on the leading boat’s stern, then Rule 12 is broken by the boat astern. If the paint is on the sides, then Rule 11 is broken by the boat to windward.
Without paint rubs or very good video/pictures, you listen to what each boat says. On a catamaran, the boat ahead tends to have a better view because of the length of the bows. In keel boats, one of the jobs of the bowman is to keep track of where the bow is in relationship to other boats and may be better positioned than the skipper on the other boat.
The smart sailor figures out how to solve this on the water and avoids the protest room like the plague. But to know how far you want to push it on the water, you’ve got to know the rules and you’ve got to decide how much the fight is worth, always remembering Rule 14.
August 7, 2019 at 4:14 pm #98586HerbGuest
I apologize for the ambiguity in my last statement. I wanted to refer to a situaution where rule 12 comes into play and there is a disagreement if the plane off the transom is broken or not.
If the boat clear astern gains overlap but the boat ahead disagrees. Who in the protest room would win if the facts cant be determined (ie a tie).
August 7, 2019 at 11:43 pm #98592Jim Clark-DaweGuest
To clarify an important point, the definition in the rules for clear astern and overlap refers to “hull and equipment in normal position.” Thus for determining overlap you have to figure in the rudders and bowsprit. If you normally trail a rudder, that would be its “normal position.”
Protests are decided by the protest committee based upon the preponderance (51%) of the evidence, both physical and verbal testimony. Sometimes it can be a very close call, and it almost becomes a coin flip as to which way to go. But unlike baseball where the tie goes to the runner (actually not accurate under baseball rules), there is no such thing as a tie in sailboat racing. A protest committee must decide which, if either, rule was broken.
When one listens very carefully, you can come up with a decision. The fact that two boats are close to each other is not a violation of the rules, it’s when one of the boats does not keep clear of the other. Here’s the definition for keep clear —
Keep Clear A boat keeps clear of a right-of-way boat
(a) if the right-of-way boat can sail her course with no need to take
avoiding action and,
(b) when the boats are overlapped, if the right-of-way boat can also change course in both directions without immediately making contact.
So what you’re listening for from the right-of-way boat is whether she could sail her course without taking avoiding action and whether she could change course in both directions without immediately making contact. Meanwhile, you’re listening for the burdened boat to say that she was allowing the right-of-way boat to maintain her course and the right-of-way boat could change course without coming into immediate contact.
In a Rule 11/12 situation, if you hear one skipper say, “I didn’t dare to move my rudder because I would have hit the other boat,” Rule 12 was broken. On the other hand, if you hear one skipper say, “I wanted to pinch a bit more, but couldn’t because I would have immediately come into contact with the other boat,” Rule 11 was broken. You can hear both of these statements in the same protest, in which case maybe one skipper broke Rule 11 and the other broke Rule 12. Notice that how a boat fails to keep clear often indicates whether there was an overlap or not.
August 8, 2019 at 3:32 pm #98605HerbGuest
Very good insight and makes sense
What about the situaution where two boats are rounding c mark and there is a disagreement of overlap at the 3 boat length zone. Let’s assume the the outer boat declares no overlap but the inside boat skipper feels he gained overlap and calls for room
August 10, 2019 at 6:41 am #98651billGuest
rule 18.2 (e) If there is reasonable doubt that a boat obtained or broke an overlap in time, it shall be presumed that she did not.
how is “reasonable doubt” determined if there is ONLY verbal evidence?
August 10, 2019 at 8:08 pm #98662Jim Clark-DaweGuest
Reasonable doubt in the rule refers to whether the protest committee has reasonable doubt, not the sailors.
Smart outside sailor, on the water, when the inside boat says there is an overlap, yells “Protest” and puts up the protest flag if the boat is longer than 6 meters. By yelling “Protest,” the outside boat gets some idea how strongly the inside boat believes in his case. If the inside boat folds, then you solve the problem. If you’re paying attention as the outside boat, often the inside boat is coming in hot and will do a close to the mark entry and wide exit. Sometimes the outside boat can slip into that gap and control the inside boat to the next mark.
Interesting question with the zone is how accurate most people are in being able to measure it by eye. Many skippers assume that a Hobie 16 is 16 feet long, so the zone starts when they are 48′ away. However, the hull of a 16 is actually a bit longer so the measurement is a bit more than 50′. But you also have to remember where the skipper sits. So you’re actually about 60 or a bit more when your bow enters the zone.
For a protest committee, the first thing you need to do is get the two skippers to agree how far away from the mark they were when the outside boat was clear ahead.This is the last point of certainty. Once you know the last point of certainty, you can start trying to figure out why the inside boat went faster than the outside boat. In one design sailing, there’s always a reason.
It might be that the outside boat was on a worse angle. It might be an early or late drop of the spinnaker. It might be that the inside boat got a gust. It might be the inside boat was a better sailor and was going faster all the way from the last mark. It may be that the two boats were swapping overlap status all the way from the previous mark. But there’s probably a reason why the inside boat went faster.
All protests, for many years, that involved a failure to keep clear but did not involve contact, were decided based solely upon verbal testimony. The protest committee uses their collective experience to decide what it thinks happen based upon what it hears during the protest. What Rule 18.2(e) does is change the standard that the protest committee applies. If the protest committee has a reasonable doubt about whether the overlap was obtained, it can use Rule 18.2(e) to support its decision. This is compared to normally where the protest committee must decide what happened.
Here’s a good discussion on Rule 18.2(e) from another forum — https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/posts/139-rule-18-late-overlap.